Shuaijiao: Combat Tested, Combat Effective… 5,000 Years and Counting
It’s good and bad that Martial Arts history doesn’t mean too much these days.
It’s good in the sense that we now have a fair platform that allows people citing history as evidence of their martial art’s effectiveness to put their money where their mouth is: Mixed Martial Arts.
It’s bad in the sense that the religious fervor about some of those arts – I’m thinking of China’s so-called “internal” martial arts here - is, like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, flying in the face of recorded History (read these articles).
Although the comparisons between the MMA vs. IMA debate and the Science vs. Religion debate are interesting, I’m not here to talk about religion. I’m here to talk about Chinese Martial Arts, specifically Shuaijiao.
Now, I’m not going to prove that those so-called “internal” arts work against an aggressive, resisting opponent. The onus is on those who claim their “internal” style to be effective to prove that. However, I am not shy to rub feathers the wrong way by saying this: Shuaijiao provides pretty much the ONLY traditional Chinese Martial Arts techniques that you see used consistently in MMA in China today. I qualify my statement with China, because there are skilled Shuaijiao practitioners fighting in MMA in China.
Here is proof. Watch this. It is a clip from Greater China’s premier professional fighting promotion: The Art of War (In terms of viewership, the largest MMA event in the world).
The most spectacular movements were Shuaijiao throws and take downs from fighters trained in a mixture of disciplines including Shuaijiao along side other great fighting arts like Sanshou, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Freestyle, etc… In fact, most of these fighters have grown up in Shuaijiao cultures, i.e. the grasslands of Inner Mongolia where you wrestle as soon as you can walk, or Sports Institutes where Shuaijiao is an integral part of Sanda training.
Did you see any Taiji, or Bagua, Longfist or Wing Chun? No. Did you see Shuaijiao? Yes. Why did we see Shuaijiao and not see the “internal” arts?
It would be too easy to conclude that the reason is that Shuaijiao works as my friend and BJJ Blackbelt Chet Quint did… but is that the real reason?
Perhaps it’s that these professional athletes who train between 6 and 8 hours a day are not skilled/dedicated/intelligent/spiritual enough to master the “internal”? Or perhaps it’s that Communist China has long lost its real “internal” martial traditions? Or perhaps it’s that all the real techniques and “internal” strength can’t be used in MMA because they are lethal or would do too much damage?
Like Chet and many others in China, my experience is that Shuaijiao works in real life. Shuaijiao is combat-tested, and combat-effective, and has been that way for thousands of years…And that doesn’t fly in the face of recorded history. It is the ONLY traditional Chinese Martial Art that can stand along side the world’s other great fighting arts. (Modern Sanshou can stand on equal footing but it is not a traditional art. Interestingly, it’s effectiveness is largely a result of the Shuaijiao incorporated into it)
I could step over the line by saying that I think “internal” arts are a mumbo jumbo concoction on a par with the Flying Spaghetti Monster but that would be going too far.
Well, I encourage you to weigh in with your opinion/evidence.
Keep Smilin’
Michael
May 3rd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I’m going to learn it right after exam >.<
just can’t wait!
and that Jiao Wang DVD.. I got it ordered.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
where will you train?
May 3rd, 2008 at 5:26 pm
in hong kong of course!
and is art of war the most watched mma event in the world?
May 4th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Wing Chun and long fists arent internal arts though. Personally, I do believe that “many” of the professional athletes who train in MMA are not skilled/dedicated/intelligent/spiritual enough to master the “internal - especially alot of the testosterone driven meat-heads you see in American MMA. I think alot of has to do with doubt. Since the main styles of Muay Thai and BJJ have been ingrained into many MMA fighters minds as the most and only effective fighting arts(which is BS), most fighters only practice those styles and doubt the effectiveness of others. So if a MMA fighter were to train Bagua, they would doubt its effectiveness( thus limiting their training results) because of its lack of exposure in MMA - and also due to the reputation that Chinese martial arts have gained as unpractical and just for show. I think this reputation can be attributed to modern performance wushu brought on by the communist regime in China that allowed pugilism and actual fighting in China. Also, the internal arts do take longer to train and master compared to other arts and are also alot more complex and harder to comprehend opposed to something like Muay Thai( which is a relatively simple but effective system). I am saddened by the general state of Chinese martial arts right now. Ever since the communist regime outlawed REAL Chinese martial arts and promoted this performance Wushu BS that we see today( which is actually very impressive - but is lacking in the MARTIAL department). I do respect wushu perfomers though as they are very skilled and very athletic - but many of them could fight their way out of a paper bag. I would argue that arts like Bagua and Wing Chun can also be used in MMA. The reason we dont see people competing in MMA with those arts is because of various reasons.
1. The quality of training is down. The lack of quality teachers in these arts that know how to apply the art is lacking. Also, the lack of sparring practice. Too many of these so called “teachers” of these arts now can’t eve apply their fighting art. Thankfully, there are still some that can. I will post a link later.
2. No desire. I dont think that the people who usually train in these arts are all that interested in MMA. They may just be interested in self defense. Truth be told, people who train in Muay Thai and BJJ are usually interested in MMA. People who train in Taekwondo are usually not. I guess you could say the same goes for Wing Chun or Bagua.
Right now, its just the quality of training. Wing Chun and Bagua ARE good fighting arts that are on par if not better than Muay Thai or BJJ. It is just that the quality of teachers is getting so bad now that many of the practicioners are not even trained properly and dont even know how to apply their art. Also, many of these practicioners just arent as dedicated to learning their art as many Muay Thai practicioners. Historically, Chinese martial arts have been the basis and foundation for martial arts throughout Asia. If they werent effective, why would people from all over Asia( Like Japan) travel to China to learn Chinese martial arts. It really makes you wonder just how much Chinese martial arts have digressed in the past century. Karate originally meant Tang Hand or Chinese hand which implies it’s Chinese origins. There are a few forms in Karate that are pretty much direct copies of White Crane forms. Wing Chun was used to train fighters quickly and effectively to fight against the Qing as it was said to be invented by pro-Ming patriots looking for a quick effective way to fight against Qing soldiers. Bagua was said to be a very powerful internal art and Baji was used by the body guards of Chiang Kai Shek( I believe). Maybe it was Sun Yat Sen. Bruce Lee used Wing Chun as the foundation of his real life combat system Jeet Kune Do and he was the FATHER of MMA. Also, one of the Gracies(that do BJJ) actually praised Wing Chun and believed it would be a great addition to a MMA fighters repertoire. Sadly, Carlson Gracie died and was never able to do that. He wanted to start training fighters in Wing Chun as a stand up style and BJJ as their ground style. After Carlson Gracie worked with Wing Chun Sifu Kwok during a Wing Chun, BJJ Seminar he said that Sifu Kwok teaches “The Best Stand-Up Fighting I have Seen”. Also, if you check his site, one of his instructors(Aabid Syed) has studied Wing Chun for over 6 years.
http://www.carlsongraciemataleao.com/pages/instructors.php
On the art of Bagua, here is the youtube site of a group of very knowledgeable fighters and master of Bagua that actually know how to apply their art for martial applications. They grew up on the streets of New York so they attest to its effectiveness. Nowhere better to test out the combat effectiveness of an art than on the streets. Anyway, im actually very impressed with these guys knowledge of the applications of Bagua. They are serious with their training(physical and psychological/mental) and are REAL Chinese martial arts practicioners. There is also a really good Hung Gar master also in NY that is in the videos as well as a Mantis master. You should really check them out. I admire them for keeping REAL Chinese martial arts alive. Alot of these guys have also been to China and trained extensively with masters in China so they are the real deal. Their knowledge on the Chinese marial arts is very impressive. The Hung Gar master in the videos is Sifu Shaif. Here are some vids of him. The first one is a short tiger crane form from Hung Gar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkTaKGwarMw
and these are Sifu Rudy showing some conditioning and applications of Hung Gar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKdqAwiBKCs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4M5J2nHwiw
Here is another guy called Sifu Rudy talking about some internal arts as well as bagua and MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH2mFF_5aAs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uc5ibLPJBo
Here is a Bagua form from the guy that runs this youtube channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qi5TTCUvU
and here are a few Bagua applications
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMNd3tVWxHg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmN_khT-N7Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BjdXU-jIZA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R48pnhgIeJg
I think Shuai Jiao has maintainted alot of the quality training and combat efficiency that has been lost in many of the other Chinese arts.
May 4th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Good SC is good Internal IMO! Depends on the teacher is always my answer to these arguments. Many, MOST, teachers out there do not teach a decent thing period! But there are a few! I have been fortunate to find one or two.
Jake
May 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am
yes it is - by viewership numbers.
May 4th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Sup Billy,
Awesome post.
Some thoughts on it: I have read historical documents that suggest that the whole “internal” label for some styles has little historical evidence. It is a relatively new term that is misleading and misguided. That’s why i put the word “internal” in quotation marks. It’s why i also don’t label the difference between bagua and wing chun as one being “internal” the other being “external”.
Read Stanley Henning’s articles. Professor Ma Mingda is another excellent source of Chinese Martial Arts history.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/index.html
RE the arguement that MMA fighters are not skilled/dedicated/intelligent/spiritual enough to learn/understand/master the “internal” arts…. I dissagree completely. i think the best proof that that statement is misguided is in the people in China who practice “internal” arts. If you visit the Shaolin area, Wenxian, Chen Jia Gou, etc. (this is where Taiji came from) you will realize that most of the people there have very little education. Yet they have been able to “master” their “internal” arts. If you look at some of the people in Beijing practicing “internal” arts, their faith in it is almost religious( bordering on cultic) That is to say it is not scientific/based on valid evidence… this has to be a sign that those people are not thinkers or that they for some psychological reason have abandoned reason in search of the non-existent.
REAL CMA’s are not banned anymore by the way. However, there is no doubt that that period of time had a negative impact on CMA’s development.
But an even bigger negative cumulative effect is and has always been built into the CMA system. That is the tradition of always holding something back from your students. Most teachers in China do this. I’m sure the NYC guys don’t and that is to be commended. If you ask them, I’m sure they have come across plenty of teachers who are like that, as I have in my 12 years here. The end result of this is exactly what you mentioned: most people these days are practicing a sterile version of the original art…I will go this far: Even the traditional CMA stylists are facing the realization that their art is now more of a performing art than a martial art.
This tradition of conservatism does not exist in Shuaijiao.
Billy,
I didn’t even bother opening any of the vid links you listed. Applications is NOT fighting. Forms are absolutely no indication of fighting ability. Show me a video of any of these guys fighting - full contact - using their “intenral” strength and art against a SKILLED, RESISTING OPPONENT.
I really want to see one!
Keep Smilin’
Michael
May 4th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Cant post any videos of them fighting full contact as they dont compete in MMA and I doubt they would post videos of them going out onto the streets to just go start fights with random people,haha. But, they apparently grew up in bag neighborhoods in New York and have used their art to defend themselves so I guess we just have to take that as face value. They sure do seem to be very knowledgeable and legit from the videos I have seen.
Regarding the Art of War, I noticed that there site hasnt been updated in months. Youre in Beijing correct? Do you know if they are still holding events? I heard it was very popular and all the competitions all sold out so I dont think they shut down because of a lack of popularity. I wonder what happened
May 4th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I wasn’t talking specifically of the NYC dudes. But it seems that there isn’t any video anywhere… but not surprisingly there are plenty of stories. That is how the “internal” arts became popular in the first place: stories… not reality.
RE Art of War: It is alive and kicking!!! I cannot say too much. But i will say this: The 11th AOW event will be the biggest and best MMA event China has ever witnessed.
What people forget is that making an event like this happen in a bureaucratic country like China is a time and resource consuming process… But MAJOR progress has been made. Expect something big soon!
May 4th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
SJ is not the only traditional Chinese martial art that can’t stand along side by side with the world’s other great fighting arts. That is not correct. That is, (it is evident) your own personal oppinion. I can tell you that XYQ as a fighting art is alive and well. SJ is, at the moment, the only traditional CMA that can consistently bee seen in CHINESE MMA competitions, I agree with that, but that doesn’t mean that it is the only one that can stand along side by side.
As for the internl/external mumbo jambo, XYQ is as internal as it is external and personally I care not what other people call it, as long as it works. XYQ, as other traditional CMA, will give you the tools to become a skilled fighter, but what one does with the tools he receives, understands them and most important uses them, is ultimately one’s personal business.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:08 am
UFC MMA videos…
Videos of stars fighting from the UFC, pride and EliteXC. Lots of MMA videos…
May 5th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Wow sounds great. Hopefully AOW can start to expand out of Beijing and hopefully go international. I guess you are connected to AOW somehow since you have this kind of information. Well, im just glad that it is still up and running. Cant wait for AOW 11!!!
May 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Sup Tadzio,
i think there was a mis-spelling in your comment. SJ CAN stand with the worlds other great fighting arts.
I have a personal opinion yes. My point is that there is objective evidence to support SJ’s effectiveness and there is little or no evidence of other “internal” art’s effectiveness.
Do you have any?
Keep Smilin’
Michael
May 5th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Hello Michael, how are you? I hope all is fine. Congratulations for the nice blog.
I am sorry; there was indeed a spelling mistake.
First of all let me begin again by saying that I am out of the “internal/external” discussion. That being said, my family practices XYQ as it should be, as a fighting art. We don’t have plans to join any MMA competition in the near future but we have been training for self-defense and we are doing pretty well. That are many other traditional CMA that I am sure would do very good in the MMA scenario. Since I practice XYQ this is the example I gave, but I am most sure that there are other arts. I have practiced Cailifo for many years in the past (along with XYQ) and I have played along with many fighters from different arts like Muythai, BJJ, and Karate. I will not say I was superior (because this other arts have also very good and dangerous techniques) but I could hold my ground. Please note that these were not professionals, just people that trained in martial arts.
From what I have seen the biggest problem with the traditional martial arts today is that they don’t train for fighting (mainly use “dead” type applications to show their “fighting” skills) and when they do train for fighting mostly you can see that they have lost the sense of what types of skills fighters have nowadays, as opposed to 300 years ago, having also lost the sense of what is applicable ina real fight scenario. Martial arts are evolving at a very fast pace nowadays and one must have an open mind when it comes to exchanging with practitioners from different martial arts so that he will benefit from an interaction. Throughout the years I have made friends (and exchanged) with fighters from many different arts (Chinese, Brazilian, Thai etc) and I have always benefited from this kind of healthy exchange. I am most sure that that are many others that think the same way I do.
Nevertheless, many traditional CMA can give you the tools you need to step up on an MMA ring, but how to understand the tools, use them, make them work, choose the best one for different situations, this is the key point. I am sure if Shuaijiao was thought as some kind of health dance, like most traditional XYQ is thought, it wouldn’t be much better than what you see in parks nowadays when it comes to TJQ, BGZ or XYQ. But the difference here is that you guys kept it real, kept the training real and never lost the sense of what skills are needed in a fight and also how to train them. For this I truly congratulate you, for I have always thought that SJ is a very good representative of an amazing Chinese martial art. But you guys are not alone. I vouch for that.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
no need to thank me!
I lucked out
Michael
May 6th, 2008 at 5:06 am
Mike,
Great post, first of I’d like to remind those who use the classification of internal external that this started in the Ming Dynasty with the “Epitaph for Wang Zhegnan” by Huang Zhongxi and continued with his son Huang Baijia (see S. Henning). The Huang’s never identified internal to a specific style. However these concepts were mentioned in writings like the Maiden of Yue, Sun Tzu, Generals Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou and others: they recognized that in combat there are times in which one would relax and other times tense up, attack and defend and so on. They complement each other.
By the end of the Ming fire weapons started to play an important role in warfare, hence, martial arts and the use of cold weapons became less important, even though generals like Qi Jiguang use them as an introduction for troops training. Callisthenic methods and those styles classified as Hua Fa Wuyi or for show as opposed to Shi Zhan Wuyi styles for war that have always existed in China started to play more an more of a role during the Qing Dynasty to the point that calisthenics, Qigong and even rituals became a part of the martial traditions (see M. Shahar).
During the Republican period the so call “internal” styles were practiced as MARTIAL and no calisthenics. Those wishing to join the Central Guoshu Academy had to compete against others in Shuai Jiao, Boxing, and weapons sparring. Xing Yi, Bagua were taught as fighting arts. Xing Yi was used by guerrillas, women militias and commando units during WWII and sorry Wing Chun is not mentioned anywhere as being used in the army. The difference is that at that time these styles were practiced for fighting, sparring was a must as well as conditioning methods. What we see today is just a watered down of what once was a fighting style.
As for the “internal” arts being used in MMA I do know of two teachers who have done just that. Mike Patterson trained his fighters using XYQ, TJQ and BGQ. Tim Cartmell trained his using the above plus BJJ and they are quiet good at what they do. If one wants to use TJQ or XYQ for fighting one has to work cardio, conditioning, weights and spar. The stories of the deadly master able to kill his opponent with a wink is pure BS.
William
May 6th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Tim Cartmell school, light sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-S37qLR6k
Mike Patterson, full contact lei tai
http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html
Cheers
May 7th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Mike, here are some cool vieos of figthing,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWK9hyJwMEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uphnhLGrbVk
cheers
May 7th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Thanks for sharing William
Loved the Tim Cartmel one.
The rest i thought were not very convincing examples of CMA’s practicality.
The Baji match in Cangzhou was choreographed.
Keep Smilin’
Michael
May 15th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Hi Mike, Billy and others,
Just discussion! I also thought about this “internal” vs “external” for a while. My old conclusion is this term is being misused in literature about 120 years ago.
1) Nei Jia Quan was the name of the style practised by Zhang Song Qi of Zhejiang in late Ming Dynasty. This style was famous for a special throwing technique called ‘Die’, which is similar to the Judo technique called ‘Otoshi’ in Tai Otoshi and Osoto Otoshi. I suspected this was also the style learned by Chen Yuan Ping, the teacher of the founders of Kito Ryu Jujistu, as he was from Zhejiang. The style faded away until a BiaoShi from JingHai, Tianjin revived it about 100 years ago and now common in Nanchong, Sichuan and Shanghai.
2) It was only started 100 years ago that the term Nei Jia Quan is also referred to other styles like Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, etc.
3) Historically, the best martial artists either worked for military or Biao Ju. The most famous military unit was Shan Pu Ying, and they practised Shuaijiao. There were 200 of them. The largest Biao Ju was Hui You Biao Ju, based in Beijing. There were over 1000 of them, and their style was San Huang Pao Chui. Some choose to work for local police or as teachers.
4) Interestingly, Shen You Shan pointed out that the perspective of Chinese and Japanese towards wrestling styles were different. He said, in Japan it is called ‘The Soft Way’ (Judo) whereas in China Shuaijiao is also called ‘The Hard Fundamentals’ (Rengong). This is because when shuaijiao experts were performing they also need to show stone breakings as well as spear twistings.
Happy Training
Karl
May 15th, 2008 at 10:46 am
sup Karl!!!
where you been hiding? ill be in HK end of June, you gonna be around?
thanks for the perspective. SOOOOO many people have no idea about “Nei Jia Quan”. How bout writing an article on it???
That “Die” technique is funny. You pronounce it “d-ear” not DIE as it is spelled in Pinyin, lol!
basically it is a nao-qie-zi/bie zi/qian tui hybrid technique… not sure if there is a specific name for it… do you know?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:46 am
i mean a shuaijiao name for it…
May 16th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Hi Mike,
I have been hiding in the Alps for a while and will be back to Hong Kong in June. Definitely will catch up with you in June in HK! And I will write some articles when I am back with my book collection in HK. Stay tune…
Well, Die is a verb but used as a noun and you know in both Beijing and Tianjin as well as northern Hebei we tend to add the -r or -zi sounds at the end of the syllable if the word is a noun or a past tense verb. I believe Die is the predecessor of many later ’sacrifying techniques’ such as Xiao Dehele, Bie Zi, Pang Tui Lou, etc as well as Judo’s Yokosutemi Waza particularly the Makkikomi techniques. I am not sure if there is any specific Shuaijiao name. Die is Ming Dynasty terminology and Shuaijiao has progressed rapidly in Qing Dynasty. Kito Ryu might has more Ming elements, but Yonshin Ryu’s founder supposedly studied under a Manchu military expert when he studied Chinese medicine in China (he stayed over 12 years)….
May 18th, 2008 at 2:43 am
ALL styles have inherrent strengths and weaknesses. And ALL styles are exploitable on many different tactical levels. Style is just a means to an end. Principles governing body mechanics, strategy, tactical perspectives, followed by the necessary training to implement same, are what differentiates effective from non-effective fighting.
Holding in one’s mind the notion that whatever the style of practice, it will defeat all others on the merit of the style alone is nothing short of a fool’s errand in my humble opinion.
I have trained people in less than one year to fight effectively using principles from the classical “internal” martial arts. But, I can assure you that if my style of choice were some other discipline, I could have done the same thing.
I do happen to believe that the methods found in classical Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji have merit in any venue… mma, street or othewise. It is simply, that as Tadzio said, too many no longer train to fight in this day and age as far as traditional CMA is concerned. This is an unfortunate reality for people like us.
It is also true, that even in the Kuoshu venue, throwing comes off as both spectator and judging “WOW” factor.. the rules provide for that, so any coach worth his or her salt will be telling and training their fighters to display such skills. This does not make throwing a “superior” tactic. It makes it an effective choice given the contest. ALL techniques and tactics have their place depending on where your “lens” is focused.
May 18th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Sup Mike,
First, let me thank you for your post and start by saying that I have known about you via magazine articles since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Once again,
thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.
Second, I make no apologies for rocking the boat. If anything, I think the Chinese Martial Arts needs more boat-rocking. This article was clearly intended to do that.
I think it points out a valid observation of people in the CMA community in China and abroad: that most people are spending their time trying to understand the academics of “reeling silk’s applications” or “the use of chi” or “how Zhan Zhuang training makes you into an invincible warrior”…all of which are completely removed from practical/useful/efficient/effective/proven combat skills like those that Shuaijiao includes as well as those in other combat-oriented disciplines.
Now, honestly I think I am bailing B.S. from a sinking and stinking boat. I’m sure you will agree that the amount of B.S. in the CMAs makes the boat so stinky that most people opt for other disciplines… less cultic ones…and that is killing me. Especially since those stinking the boat out are from romanticized, modern, hybrid arts which are not particularly skilled/steeped/accomplished in the essence of real CMA (I’m talking about arts like Taiji and Bagua among others here) They are thriving at the expense of China’s real martial traditions, many of which happen to be preserved in Shuaijiao.
I see Chinese MMA as an affirmation of Shuaijiao’s non-stinkiness because it is observable and measurable in MMA, our modern day testing ground. I see the absence of Taiji/Bagua/other traditional styles in that testing ground as an affirmation of those styles being less combat-effective (i.e. more stinky).
But here I am comparing styles once again…
It’s hard to escape. In my opinion, not comparing styles is like saying that the comparison of effectiveness between different medicines is a “fool’s errand” because every person who takes it is different, or their ailment is different. That is true, but not so helpful in the analysis, development, and evolution of medicine or real martial arts (although we could argue that martial arts is evolving into what it needs to be to survive in modern society: a non-violent form of physical exercise akin to yoga/ or a dynamic entertainment activity/event/sport like Salsa or Rhythmic Gymnastics)
Having justified comparing styles, I’d like to qualify it with this: I have also come to realize, much like you I suspect, that in combat - whether against disease or competitors/enemies – it is also about using your intelligence to find the right cocktail for succeeding in each particular situation. I’m the first to admit that running away is a better strategy than trying to slam a dude with a knife. Plugging some tough guy in the mouth in front of his buddies is better than pulling him into the guard. My qualifying statement is that while we can compare styles, we can’t afford to be one-dimensional in our strategies. It’s a new realization for a lot of people (myself included)…but Sun Zi knew and espoused this a millennia or two ago. So, to be clear, I’m not advocating one-dimensionalism or fundamentalism at all by making the claims I have.
On the contrary, I hope to challenge fundamentalism in CMA by pointing out blind spots, misinformation, and unsound thinking (of which I was a willing victim for many years).
I sense that you are a challenger too Mike. I’m almost certain that when you are training fighters to fight inside 1 year you aren’t wasting time with the B.S. I see most “internal” arts espouse.
And I’m glad that you mentioned that you could have trained fighters to fight in the same period in some other discipline. I agree, and it illustrates that it is more how it’s practiced that what is practiced. It has been my experience that great combat arts of the world have this how in common.
And that is only part of my point. I wanted to say in an indirect way: That most “internal” styles we see today are not practiced the way any combat art should be practiced…i.e. by fighting, and fighting against fighters using different strategies. I sense our thinking may be aligned here. From what I have heard others mention, your approach to developing CMA practitioners is an exception to be learned from.
But let me rock the boat just a little more: if we go back to the medicine analogy we can start thinking about exactly what the merit in those “internal” arts is. This is another toe-stomping point: Apart from increases in coordination, flexibility, strength etc. (which you can get from any physical culture) there is little practical merit for the fighter in most of what and how the “internal” arts (or most traditional Chinese arts) are practiced – both now and historically.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:06 am
Hey, I just have to chime in.
Taiji and shuai chiao go hand in hand for me. I personally make almost no distinction between the two. Taiji principles that embody yielding, following, sticking, changing, avoiding force on force, using circles and angles, rooting, redirecting, all these skills greatly help set up shuai jiao techniques and many taiji techniques are also shuai jiao techniques. Snake creeps down is a fireman’s carry for example.
Shuai Jiao has a wonderful history and a wonderful culture of competing and fighting with the art that most other CMA don’t seem to have. I really think that makes a bigger difference than anything, the community needs to support realistic combat training and competition. I just hope that the nasty, devastating, shuai jiao techniques that aren’t as competition friendly don’t get lost amidst a bunch of PC BS.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:26 am
Michael, you may “rock the boat” all you want, it does not affect me in the slightest. I am confident in my skills and my skills were derived solely through the classical internal arts.
However, I would be the first to say, as I have often said before, that most modern practitioners do not train to fight. This is sad and unfortunate reality which waters traditional CMA and muddies the water for the small percentage remaining that do fight using their respective disciplines.
I did not say that a “comparison of styles” is a fool’s errand. I said that “Holding in one’s mind the notion that whatever the style of practice, it will defeat all others on the merit of the style alone is nothing short of a fool’s errand in my humble opinion.” Big difference.
Comparing styles is how one learns to strategize outside the box of their respective system. It is a necessary part of the educational process of a fighter just as is pitting oneself against other stylistic backgrounds to evolve requisite skills.
In most of the rest of our persepectives I think we are in more agreement than not, except one.. When you say; “there is little practical merit for the fighter in most of what and how the “internal” arts (or most traditional Chinese arts) are practiced – both now and historically”…. it is clear and apparent to me that your exposure to the arts in the “now” has been with regard to families who do not fight, and there are many. But to lump in the word “historically” with your statement, I cannot agree.
At one time, ALL martial systems were practiced by those serious in developing their fighting skills with an emphasis on “practical merit”. Hell, Michael, in my day we were fighting inside class long before we even knew what style we were even involved with! But as I said before.. sadly, that is no longer the reality we live in. Still, there are those today that do remember, do care and do focus on issues of “practical merit” with regard to developing real fighting skills.
You seem to be one who does and for that I applaud your efforts to promote your art of Shuaijiao. There needs to be more people involved in the traditional Chinese arts, whatever the style, that return a focused gaze on such issues. Without this shift in awareness, I feel we are doomed to lose much in this next generation.
Much of the problem falls into two broad areas in my opinion. The first being the shoulders of modern “teachers”, many of whom have actually grown up and been certified within a structure that I would hardly call “martial” and instead choose to hide their lack of skill in a shroud of mysticism.
The second falls squarely on the shoulders of lazy and impatient students. This is especially true in the West. I have in numerous seminars with MMA people been looked at squarely in the eye and told: “Well, yeah.. it’s clear your method for “X” is better, but I don’t have time to train that skill like that. I need to be ready to fight in two months.” Even my own pupils, with notable exceptions, are often either too lazy or too “time poor” to train effectively.
The traditional approach takes time. Time is something that most are not willing to invest at the level required to gain such abilities. Things need to change in many ways. And so you are right about me in that regard… I do also challenge many of the mindsets that are fast becoming pitfalls in TMA and are threatening the very survival of many disciplines.
So shake it up all you want my friend.. SOMEONE needs to do it and I am fast getting too old for such battles. I’ve done my best and barely made a dent.
Good luck in your pursuits.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Very, very interesting topic. Great contributions from many people - I especially like Mr. Patterson’s comments. He have tried what he learned both by fighting other people and by training others to do so.
About rocking the boat, I think I could, to some extent, say that I am one of the people that, over the years, has been doing a great amount of rocking when it comes to the Chinese martial arts. But as most people prefer to live in their fantasy world where they can just ignore what real fight is, I can’t say that all the rocking brought me popularity. Not in the game for it though.
I try, as much as I can, not to talk about things I do not know or understand - in this context these things are Taijiquan and Baguazhang or, why not say it, Shuaijiao. Traditional Shanxi XYQ for self-defense isn’t among the things I don’t understand, so that I do talk about it. Not only I talk about it but I also try to alert people that, as a martial art (in the complete sense of the word), as a tool that allows people to acquire martial efficiency, XYQ is dying. So rocking the boat is, in this context, a necessary thing, but it would be best if we all would contain ourselves and talk only about the arts we do understand. When you, Michael, states that “It is the ONLY traditional Chinese Martial Art that can stand alongside the world’s other great fighting arts ” at the same time you are stating that the other Traditional Chinese martial arts can’t do that. It is a very direct statement but, more important, it is a very broad statement, because in just a sentence you are saying that, at this time, no other TCMA is MMA effective rather than SJ. I sympathize, I understand where you are coming from and the need you feel to rock the boat, but at the same time, while you are making a contextual comparison between SJ and other TCMA, you can’t validate your statement because you lack knowledge in one of the elements that you are trying to compare - the traditional Chinese martial arts. That SJ can be (and actually is) effective in MMA or as a self defense method, that is and has always been clear, but when you compare “A” and “B” but has only knowledge of “A” and not that of “B”, there is no possibility of validating what you state - You can only validate half of it, and that is why I can but only half agree with you. Have you said “it appears that SJ is the only TCMA that is effective in MMA”, that would have been, in my opinion, the correct thing to say, because (unless I am wrong - correct me , please) unless you have trained yourself in the “internal arts” as fighting arts AND have actually trained in all the lines that are available in China, how would you know that this arts and lines are not effective in MMA? That most of the XYQ practiced nowadays in China SEEMS to be just a health dance, this is obvious to me, but from there to say that none of it could stand its ground like SJ does isn’t exactly fair nor correct.
I couldn’t agree more when Mr. Patterson writes that:
“In most of the rest of our perspectives I think we are in more agreement than not, except one.. When you say; “there is little practical merit for the fighter in most of what and how the “internal” arts (or most traditional Chinese arts) are practiced – both now and historically”…. it is clear and apparent to me that your exposure to the arts in the “now” has been with regard to families who do not fight, and there are many. But to lump in the word “historically” with your statement, I cannot agree.”
Once you have had the exposure that he is talking about, then you will have an informed opinion on the matter. Most probably when it comes to the “internals” all you have seen is the people that do the health dance. If all I have seen was that, I’d probably have the same opinion you do. But I have seen a bit more.
Still, you do a good job promoting your art and I hope you can carry on, but know that the TCMA for fighting are not dead.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:27 am
Sup Tadzio.
I appreciate you point of view.
I do not nor have i ever claimed to have practiced every style of CMA. And I appreciate your argument that for that reason I cannot state with certainty that SJ is the ONLY fighting art in China that can stand of the stage with other fighting disciplines that have been proven effective in MMA.
I honestly don’t think that i need to. I posted some evidence. No one - you included- has posted video evidence proving their point of view. However many have posted intricate arguments and carefully worded debates…this in my mind is part of the problem.
RE my credibility, which you cast aspersions on. I do not resent your implications. Just so you know, I have been in China for 12 years. Training fulltime in the beijing University of PE for 3 years, practicing the so-called “internal” arts intensively for 5 of those years. And for several years in New Zealand before all that.
I would go as far to say that my Yiquan teachers were some of the best in China. They fought incestuously. Also the stories of their victories over other styles were in my experience were exaggerated. My Taiji teachers were perhaps some of the best in the world. Martial content and application were also significant parts of training (nothing like Mike P’s approach though from the sounds of things). I have also had the pleasure of being around some of China’s most proficient traditional masters in Cangzhou and Beijing over a period of years.
I don’t claim any credentials, but I do feel I’m qualified to express my reflections and realizations…as have CCTV, BTV, and several other Chinese TV stations.
My intent in this forum is to create allies, but i fear that my true opinion of most Chinese Martial Arts would make enemies of most CMA people.
My opinion of the so-called “internal” arts would make even more enemies. And in this particular category i do not retract my comments about their lack of real martial merit historically. Let’s agree to disagree here.
I prefer to adhere to recorded, referenced history rather than unreliable,biased oral transmissions that have come from and through people in the lowest caste of Chinese society (to which Shuaijiao traditionally does not belong) or the lavish martial arts fantasies read and blindly believed by millions across China.
And honestly, we are reinventing the wheel here in this discussion. People smarter and more skilled than you and I have proven repeatedly that there is not one traditional art in China that can stand on the professional Sanda stage let alone MMA. Now, I’m not saying that practicing Shuaijiao alone allows you to succeed in Sanda and MMA. I AM saying that Shuaijiao techniques and strategies work and are visible in Sanda and MMA. No other traditional art’s techniques or strategies are…
Tadzio, i beg you… show me some evidence
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:35 am
I finally watched the posted clip above… I saw many things. I don’t see anything that I would clearly be able to identify as coming from a specific or unique style, but this is often the case in fighting. The picture perfect stylistic techniques are rare and most of fighting is chaos at its best. I did see alot of Shuai (throwing) but nearly all CMAs have Shuai contained within them.
You will see much Shuai in the clip on my website found here also, but it is all from Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji application: http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html .. just at the top of the page immediately under the photo of the 1996 World Kuoshu team. The actual URL for the clip itself is: http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/KuoshuCollagePub.wmv
Keep in mind that these are amateur contests and the fighters ranged from 1 to 5 years of fighting experience.. BUT they are ALL trained by me in classical “so called internal arts” with NO other background or style in their upbringing.
You did ask for proof Michael. This is all I have of footage surviving… pity, as there are many great KO’s missing from what I have here. Internal arts, if trained properly for fighting, do work for fighting.
I will say one last thing.. Who you train with and HOW you train makes the biggest difference. And as I said before, there are MANY so called masters teaching nowadays that have never fought and/or trained to fight for real. This includes many who now make their respective homes in mainland China, and yes, teach at the Beijing University of PE… sad but true.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:06 am
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am not challenging your opinion. You have the right to have one and although I don’t agree with it, I respect it.
I have been in China for 10 years, also training full time. The thing you are doing now, rocking the boat as to say, I have been doing for many years over the internet, so I understand you point of view. I do what I can over the internet and I try to make people understand that XYQ for fighting is alive here, in Shanxi. I open the door for people that are truly interested in self-defense so that they can have access to XYQ that, to my knowledge, isn’t available in Beijing.
You say that “People smarter and more skilled than you and I have proven repeatedly that there is not one traditional art in China that can stand on the professional Sanda stage let alone MMA”. I will have to tell you that all you can do is speak for yourself only, but not for me. When I was training in Brazil we were the only people that actually used traditional Cailifo and XYQ in Leitai matches, both “Sanda” and “kuoshu” formats. What most people in Brazil at that time would say was that “the traditional Chinese martial arts can’t be used in Leitai. When you get up there they are not efficient.”. We proved them wrong. In China was fortunate enough to find a master that is all about fighting and that stresses fighting from day one.
As I said, I respect what you do and your opinions. No one will become your enemy just because they disagree with you - this is just a discussion blog. Unless some other person chime in I’d say we are almost done discussing this,lol.
As for the evidence, it was a pity you had to live Beijing the day I arrived. But I invite you to stop by in Shanxi anytime you want. I guarantee you will be welcome. You will see that Shanxi has more to offer that noodles and vinegar.
Tadzio Goldgewicht.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
agreed!
“Shanxi has more to offer that noodles and vinegar” LOL!!!
I’ll be sure to come…you can bribe me with noddles and vinegar
May 23rd, 2010 at 7:57 pm
UFC 114 will have a bunch of suits, but none at the magnitude of the bout involving Quinton Jackson and Rashad Evans. This is one of the most anticipated complement-ups, which will as a final point bring location this month.
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